On an encounter with enraged Trumpers - and the difficult road ahead for a society in which conspiracies, extremist iconography, and political violence have become ubiquitous
I, like others, eagerly await your musings. At the moment I am in Germany, where I have spent time with "colleagues" for nearly 40 years. Like you said, you can't escape, there is no safe space from the world of American fascism. What I so liked about this piece was that it reminded me of one of my favorite books of all times, Hans Fallada, Every Man Dies Alone, an exploration of the everyday and psychological toll of living in such times, in that case under fascism in Germany during the 1930 and 1940s.
What you describe with this woman on the beach is now part of all our lives in large and small ways.
I had a similar experience in an art gallery in Mexico with a white Canadian woman casually telling me the US cities were smoldering rubble, a la ‘Escape from New York.’ We very gently tried to explain that this would not explain why a one bedroom condo in these supposedly destroyed cities would cost over a million dollars. She knew this fact but simply hadn’t put two and two together. I don’t know if we got through to her.
I regret I did not ask her where she got her information because I have had to wonder forever after ——why would a Canadian expat in Mexico who is well-educated believe these things?
I used to put it down to Qanon but now it’s everywhere, primarily with white people (but not always), and generally with older ones (but not always). They aren’t all deep into Qanon, they simply are receiving the flotsam and jetsam that was more readily identified as created by Qanon. Qanon was a bit like the way the way the Pacific Garbage Patch was our first hint we had a problem, and now we are dealing with microplastics.
The microplastics of paranoia are now in many people’s brains.
There is a quote on the top of one of my posts that speaks to the politicization of everyday life where I talk about an excellent essay called “Literally Hitler.”
"We should also consider this kind of rhetoric, the public display of these slogans and symbols as a form of harassment, threat, and violence." If I ever posted that the MAGAts on my timeline would go into an orgiastic feeding frenzy. I just post my truth then block the haters. No time for haters, but I can organize my thoughts as to my own beliefs. Can't legislate morality, but you can Shunn the #Weirdos.
Thanks for this post, it's as enlightening as usual. I don't bother trying to reason with people that are so far down the rabbit hole like the woman you encountered, because they are never going to listen. They're in a cult. The best you can do with your relatives who are in the cult is to just not ever discuss politics. I had to do that with my late father.
The encounter you had with people wearing those t-shirts with violent messages resonated with me. Generally, living in a very blue city I don't encounter those often, but recently I was at the Oshkosh Fly-In and, while I didn't see a lot of people sporting MAGA gear, one in particular stood out. He was wearing a t-shirt which had a picture of Trump flipping off the viewer with both hands, and the text said something like, "You missed, try that again!" Not totally, correct, but that was the spirit. He was also sporting the usual MAGA baseball cap. Oshkosh is a very family-oriented event, with lots of kids around. Why would someone want to wear a shirt that was so vulgar to a family event? I think it's for two reasons: 1: these people are extremely proud of their membership in the Trump cult, and want everyone to know they're in it, and 2: to intimidate people who aren't in it. It's indeed exhausting.
It isn't just the t-shirts, though, it's the constant rhetoric against people who don't conform to who they think are Real Americans(TM), which is, as you've stated, anyone who isn't white, straight, cis, Christian, Republicans. While I'm white, straight, and cis, I'm not Christian. I'm also a single, childless, female high school history teacher in a unionized school district that's primarily students of color in a very large northern Democratic city, in a Democratic state, which means that Trump, Vance, and the entire Republican party are coming for me in a specific way that they're not coming for other people who aren't those things. Of course, if they saw me on the street I'd be safe, unlike people of color, or someone who's trans, because I don't look like one of their enemies, but in reality, I am, given their policies. These people scare the shit out of me, and every time I see a poll which shows that Harris and Trump are neck-and-neck, it upsets me to think that there are so many people in this country who think that what the Republicans are offering for this country is actually going to be good for it.
In my class, when we get to World War II and the Holocaust, I have students read an excerpt from a book by Milton Meyer called "They Thought They Were Free". In it, he interviewed ordinary Germans who became Nazis. The interview I have them read is of a man who had been a university professor (specifically of Middle High German) who talked about how the subtle changes that the Nazis instigated made it so that people didn't react against them, because they didn't want to seem to be alarmists. This resulted in people like him who didn't believe in what the Nazis were doing losing all of their principles because they didn't stand up to the regime when they should have. It's a warning about not being complacent in the face of fascism. At least people here who are against what Trump is doing are making a lot of noise about it, but in the end, it won't matter if enough people don't vote to keep him out of office, and to ensure that the GOP doesn't win a majority in either house of Congress as well. It astounds me that there are people who are still on the fence about who they're going to vote for. How is that possible? Don't even get me started on the people who say that they aren't going to vote because there's no difference between the two parties, or that who's in government doesn't make a difference. Seriously?? Or the people who say that they're not voting for Trump, but they're also not going to vote for the Democrats because of Gaza. I don't like what's happening there, either, but if you're in a swing state, especially, it's not a reason to withhold your vote. Actually it's a reason to vote for Harris, because Trump has already said that he'll give Netanyahu full reign to absolutely destroy the place.
Republicans have to lose, and lose big, over multiple elections, for these people to crawl back under the rocks they came out from. That's only going to happen if people who are against the GOP come out in massive numbers to vote against them. We're never going to get rid of extremism, sadly, but maybe it's possible to make it socially unacceptable to openly embrace it like people are now. I don't know what to do about news networks like Fox and OAN, or about social media platforms which actively push mis/disinformation, but something has to change.
I know it hurts conservatives’ and centrists’ feelings when I say this, but I don’t care: There were plenty of people in 1930s Germany who wanted to “avoid talking politics,” and look what happened.
As for specifics, I have reasonable success saying things like “Oh really? 87,000 armed IRS agents? Is that like the FEMA trailers? The Jade Helm exercises? The death panels?”
But the important thing to keep in mind is that this is by no definition of the term a political movement. An unknowable but nonzero percentage of them know they’re lying. And that makes it a different thing. And the fact is they’ve grown to their present strength because they’ve been accorded way too much respect for decades. A lot more mockery and dismissiveness is in order, as hard as that is to put into practice.
You owe no one an apology for taking time off, for any reason but especially for illness and/or vacation. I hope your time away has helped you and your family member gain ground on your recoveries and with relation. Please take care of yourself and those you love first.
Thank you Thomas for another insightful & as always, well written newsletter.
Your story of the 87,000 IRS agents reminded me of my Mother’s panic during President Obama’s first term. She told me numerous times that “Obama” was coming to her house to take away her retirement because she was double-dipping. She was extremely worried because her Social Security & her small retirement from working in the public school system were all she had. She didn’t watch TV news or listen to the radio so after some persistence, finally got her to admit that she had donated to the RNC & was receiving mail that implied that the Obama administration was going after people’s retirement if they were getting more than one retirement. The Republican misinformation machine has been at work for more than half a century & now their work is easier because they have their own networks & radio stations broadcasting their lies every day.
I am always so happy when I see another of your newsletters in my mailbox!
I don't understand how living with such paranoia, like the elderly folks you encountered, and hate, like the folks with the horribly violent t-shirts/truck liveries/etc (and yeah, I've definitely seen it as well) isn't both exhausting and incredibly disheartening. I don't understand how people can live in that kind of constant state of agitation.
Hate and fear can be addictive. They are also powerful ways to control others. Instigating both can give people a twisted pleasure and that’s before you add in the allure of doing so to gain and keep power. An Ignorant (meaning not knowing rather than stupid) and fearful people are easier to control.
We have reached a situation that even George Orwell could not imagine: A very open society where citizens have easy access to fact-based news and information and instead of believing what's there, they willfully embrace the extremist and authoritarian propaganda coming from Trump and his echo chamber, especially Fox "News". There are now 50 - 70 million US voters who voluntarily have chosen to embed themselves in a totally manufactured mirror world, an imaginary place Rachel Maddow refers to as "Earth 2".
As Prof. Zimmer notes, there is no possibility for rational discussion or "meeting in the middle" because our fact and science based reality (Earth 1) does not intersect with the propaganda generated imaginary world of MAGA (Earth 2). Our only chance for preserving democracy is to make sure the MAGA movement is blocked from all further attempt to gain full control of the US government and to hope that when MAGA members die out, their descendants are more open to fact based reality and multiracial functional democracy.
Thank you for this piece. It is both frightening and necessary to understand. I have often wondered how I would respond in similar circumstances and this helped me see the likely futility of trying to reason with the unreasonable. Most of all, I hope you and your family are well.
Firstly, thank you for this thoughtful and thought provoking essay. It’s one of those that needs to be read over and over.
Secondly, I had an experience that was slightly adjacent to yours with my daughter-in-law’s mother about a year and a half ago.
During our visit in another state, she and I were strolling and she said something like what about that Biden crime family? She had every reason to assume we were as conservative as she, bc our entire family, on my husband’s side are very very conservative politically. We are the exceptions. I mentioned letting the legal process proceed, she mentioned how old Biden was, I replied at least he’s not crazy; she responded with more nonsense and I finally turned to her and said neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind and we probably shouldn’t talk politics. I said this with warmth and she realized that pushing it would be going too far. I genuinely like and care about her and I think she feels the same about me, so luckily our love of family, our shared adoration of our grandchildren, (same age as your kids), would have to be the real bond for us going forward.
Ours was a unique encounter, and I am so thankful our family still places love over political ideology, but I fear we are the exception.
And lastly, I’ve been struggling for months to articulate the dissonance I feel when confronted with the doom scenarios of both sides. Both parties predict the demise of the country and of democracy if the other side wins. I’ve even written a chart for myself to categorize each side’s claims of impending catastrophe. And bc basically my entire family, including my step-son and his wife, are so very conservative, I try to hear the Dem side talking points from their point of view. And basically, aside from the details of the actual threats each side yells about, the only difference I can distinguish, is that I believe the things the Dem party warns about are true. I am as convinced that MAGA is an existential threat as the other side is convinced that the Dem party is a fascist communist sex trafficking cabal.
I don’t know how you counter that kind of entrenchment. As your encounter so perfectly illustrates, the maga folks believe to their core that their world will end if Harris is elected, just as I feel about Trump.
I’m actually afraid to talk with our kids about this. I don’t want to find out how extreme their opinions might be. I hold onto the idea that our smart talented kids would finally see the abject nonsense and real danger that another Trump term would mean. But that Im afraid is a pipe dream.
The only time this happened to me was in a waiting room at a doctor's appointment with my husband during COVID. Another couple around our age was also waiting and started to engage with us about "the COVID hoax". I gave them a dead-eyed stare and said in a low, serious voice: "You do NOT want to have that conversation with me." They shut up quick. I agree with Thomas that we won't change their minds. I think the best thing is to show them how reprehensible we think they are.
My wife is an ER nurse. She took a contract in Brooklyn around March-April 2020, and Florida later that year. Suffice to say that I defy any covid "truther" to come at her with that shit. I think her look alone would melt their faces.
Hi Thomas, I really appreciate the clarity you bring to this extreme time in US politics. This newsletter and the podcast help me to keep my attention focused on the big picture of the fight for pluralistic multiracial democracy. In Texas where I live, I see violent right-wing iconography on a daily basis--the permission structure on open display. Thank you for making time for this important work, even in the midst of travel and time with family!
Also: I'm a full-time mom with a baby and toddler, so audio is often the only way I can catch up on political commentary. I really appreciate the audio versions of your letters and look forward to their return!
Thank you so much, Sara, for your kind words! And the audio versions are definitely coming back. I’m really sorry it proved impossible to record voiceovers while we’ve been traveling. But once I’m back in the States, I’ll make sure to provide the audio.
As a Canadian who has been to the US only a few times, this just confirms what I experienced during most visits. I've been challenged by Americans about "not being allowed to own guns" almost every time they discover where I'm from. My standard reply is "Actually, we are allowed to own guns. But aside from sport hunters, most Canadians don't feel it necessary to own one." From my perspective, extreme positions have always been on view within the US since my first visit in 1977. The problem now is that WE are starting to see more extremism in our population. I think it was Robin Williams who said that being Canadian was like living upstairs from a meth lab. Unfortunately we can't just move to another apartment! I've not been to the US since before 2016 and will likely not cross the border again. As you say, the aggressive haters are everywhere! The one thing I'm committed to doing is challenging any loud rhetoric that may be spewed in my presence WITHIN Canada by US visitors because I have also been subjected to that in the past.
I, like others, eagerly await your musings. At the moment I am in Germany, where I have spent time with "colleagues" for nearly 40 years. Like you said, you can't escape, there is no safe space from the world of American fascism. What I so liked about this piece was that it reminded me of one of my favorite books of all times, Hans Fallada, Every Man Dies Alone, an exploration of the everyday and psychological toll of living in such times, in that case under fascism in Germany during the 1930 and 1940s.
What you describe with this woman on the beach is now part of all our lives in large and small ways.
I had a similar experience in an art gallery in Mexico with a white Canadian woman casually telling me the US cities were smoldering rubble, a la ‘Escape from New York.’ We very gently tried to explain that this would not explain why a one bedroom condo in these supposedly destroyed cities would cost over a million dollars. She knew this fact but simply hadn’t put two and two together. I don’t know if we got through to her.
I regret I did not ask her where she got her information because I have had to wonder forever after ——why would a Canadian expat in Mexico who is well-educated believe these things?
I used to put it down to Qanon but now it’s everywhere, primarily with white people (but not always), and generally with older ones (but not always). They aren’t all deep into Qanon, they simply are receiving the flotsam and jetsam that was more readily identified as created by Qanon. Qanon was a bit like the way the way the Pacific Garbage Patch was our first hint we had a problem, and now we are dealing with microplastics.
The microplastics of paranoia are now in many people’s brains.
There is a quote on the top of one of my posts that speaks to the politicization of everyday life where I talk about an excellent essay called “Literally Hitler.”
https://substack.com/home/post/p-105480756
Not trying to flog my substack, just it is easiest to link to point to the quote and give the link to the essay!
"We should also consider this kind of rhetoric, the public display of these slogans and symbols as a form of harassment, threat, and violence." If I ever posted that the MAGAts on my timeline would go into an orgiastic feeding frenzy. I just post my truth then block the haters. No time for haters, but I can organize my thoughts as to my own beliefs. Can't legislate morality, but you can Shunn the #Weirdos.
Keep Illuminating us! I like the article.
Thanks for this post, it's as enlightening as usual. I don't bother trying to reason with people that are so far down the rabbit hole like the woman you encountered, because they are never going to listen. They're in a cult. The best you can do with your relatives who are in the cult is to just not ever discuss politics. I had to do that with my late father.
The encounter you had with people wearing those t-shirts with violent messages resonated with me. Generally, living in a very blue city I don't encounter those often, but recently I was at the Oshkosh Fly-In and, while I didn't see a lot of people sporting MAGA gear, one in particular stood out. He was wearing a t-shirt which had a picture of Trump flipping off the viewer with both hands, and the text said something like, "You missed, try that again!" Not totally, correct, but that was the spirit. He was also sporting the usual MAGA baseball cap. Oshkosh is a very family-oriented event, with lots of kids around. Why would someone want to wear a shirt that was so vulgar to a family event? I think it's for two reasons: 1: these people are extremely proud of their membership in the Trump cult, and want everyone to know they're in it, and 2: to intimidate people who aren't in it. It's indeed exhausting.
It isn't just the t-shirts, though, it's the constant rhetoric against people who don't conform to who they think are Real Americans(TM), which is, as you've stated, anyone who isn't white, straight, cis, Christian, Republicans. While I'm white, straight, and cis, I'm not Christian. I'm also a single, childless, female high school history teacher in a unionized school district that's primarily students of color in a very large northern Democratic city, in a Democratic state, which means that Trump, Vance, and the entire Republican party are coming for me in a specific way that they're not coming for other people who aren't those things. Of course, if they saw me on the street I'd be safe, unlike people of color, or someone who's trans, because I don't look like one of their enemies, but in reality, I am, given their policies. These people scare the shit out of me, and every time I see a poll which shows that Harris and Trump are neck-and-neck, it upsets me to think that there are so many people in this country who think that what the Republicans are offering for this country is actually going to be good for it.
In my class, when we get to World War II and the Holocaust, I have students read an excerpt from a book by Milton Meyer called "They Thought They Were Free". In it, he interviewed ordinary Germans who became Nazis. The interview I have them read is of a man who had been a university professor (specifically of Middle High German) who talked about how the subtle changes that the Nazis instigated made it so that people didn't react against them, because they didn't want to seem to be alarmists. This resulted in people like him who didn't believe in what the Nazis were doing losing all of their principles because they didn't stand up to the regime when they should have. It's a warning about not being complacent in the face of fascism. At least people here who are against what Trump is doing are making a lot of noise about it, but in the end, it won't matter if enough people don't vote to keep him out of office, and to ensure that the GOP doesn't win a majority in either house of Congress as well. It astounds me that there are people who are still on the fence about who they're going to vote for. How is that possible? Don't even get me started on the people who say that they aren't going to vote because there's no difference between the two parties, or that who's in government doesn't make a difference. Seriously?? Or the people who say that they're not voting for Trump, but they're also not going to vote for the Democrats because of Gaza. I don't like what's happening there, either, but if you're in a swing state, especially, it's not a reason to withhold your vote. Actually it's a reason to vote for Harris, because Trump has already said that he'll give Netanyahu full reign to absolutely destroy the place.
Republicans have to lose, and lose big, over multiple elections, for these people to crawl back under the rocks they came out from. That's only going to happen if people who are against the GOP come out in massive numbers to vote against them. We're never going to get rid of extremism, sadly, but maybe it's possible to make it socially unacceptable to openly embrace it like people are now. I don't know what to do about news networks like Fox and OAN, or about social media platforms which actively push mis/disinformation, but something has to change.
I know it hurts conservatives’ and centrists’ feelings when I say this, but I don’t care: There were plenty of people in 1930s Germany who wanted to “avoid talking politics,” and look what happened.
As for specifics, I have reasonable success saying things like “Oh really? 87,000 armed IRS agents? Is that like the FEMA trailers? The Jade Helm exercises? The death panels?”
But the important thing to keep in mind is that this is by no definition of the term a political movement. An unknowable but nonzero percentage of them know they’re lying. And that makes it a different thing. And the fact is they’ve grown to their present strength because they’ve been accorded way too much respect for decades. A lot more mockery and dismissiveness is in order, as hard as that is to put into practice.
You owe no one an apology for taking time off, for any reason but especially for illness and/or vacation. I hope your time away has helped you and your family member gain ground on your recoveries and with relation. Please take care of yourself and those you love first.
Thank you Thomas for another insightful & as always, well written newsletter.
Your story of the 87,000 IRS agents reminded me of my Mother’s panic during President Obama’s first term. She told me numerous times that “Obama” was coming to her house to take away her retirement because she was double-dipping. She was extremely worried because her Social Security & her small retirement from working in the public school system were all she had. She didn’t watch TV news or listen to the radio so after some persistence, finally got her to admit that she had donated to the RNC & was receiving mail that implied that the Obama administration was going after people’s retirement if they were getting more than one retirement. The Republican misinformation machine has been at work for more than half a century & now their work is easier because they have their own networks & radio stations broadcasting their lies every day.
I am always so happy when I see another of your newsletters in my mailbox!
I don't understand how living with such paranoia, like the elderly folks you encountered, and hate, like the folks with the horribly violent t-shirts/truck liveries/etc (and yeah, I've definitely seen it as well) isn't both exhausting and incredibly disheartening. I don't understand how people can live in that kind of constant state of agitation.
Hate and fear can be addictive. They are also powerful ways to control others. Instigating both can give people a twisted pleasure and that’s before you add in the allure of doing so to gain and keep power. An Ignorant (meaning not knowing rather than stupid) and fearful people are easier to control.
These are all good points, and I appreciate you raising them.
We have reached a situation that even George Orwell could not imagine: A very open society where citizens have easy access to fact-based news and information and instead of believing what's there, they willfully embrace the extremist and authoritarian propaganda coming from Trump and his echo chamber, especially Fox "News". There are now 50 - 70 million US voters who voluntarily have chosen to embed themselves in a totally manufactured mirror world, an imaginary place Rachel Maddow refers to as "Earth 2".
As Prof. Zimmer notes, there is no possibility for rational discussion or "meeting in the middle" because our fact and science based reality (Earth 1) does not intersect with the propaganda generated imaginary world of MAGA (Earth 2). Our only chance for preserving democracy is to make sure the MAGA movement is blocked from all further attempt to gain full control of the US government and to hope that when MAGA members die out, their descendants are more open to fact based reality and multiracial functional democracy.
I prefer Jon Stewart's name for Earth 2 - Bullshit Mountain.
Should be MAGA on a golf course or in a golf cart.
Thank you for this piece. It is both frightening and necessary to understand. I have often wondered how I would respond in similar circumstances and this helped me see the likely futility of trying to reason with the unreasonable. Most of all, I hope you and your family are well.
Firstly, thank you for this thoughtful and thought provoking essay. It’s one of those that needs to be read over and over.
Secondly, I had an experience that was slightly adjacent to yours with my daughter-in-law’s mother about a year and a half ago.
During our visit in another state, she and I were strolling and she said something like what about that Biden crime family? She had every reason to assume we were as conservative as she, bc our entire family, on my husband’s side are very very conservative politically. We are the exceptions. I mentioned letting the legal process proceed, she mentioned how old Biden was, I replied at least he’s not crazy; she responded with more nonsense and I finally turned to her and said neither of us will be able to change the other’s mind and we probably shouldn’t talk politics. I said this with warmth and she realized that pushing it would be going too far. I genuinely like and care about her and I think she feels the same about me, so luckily our love of family, our shared adoration of our grandchildren, (same age as your kids), would have to be the real bond for us going forward.
Ours was a unique encounter, and I am so thankful our family still places love over political ideology, but I fear we are the exception.
And lastly, I’ve been struggling for months to articulate the dissonance I feel when confronted with the doom scenarios of both sides. Both parties predict the demise of the country and of democracy if the other side wins. I’ve even written a chart for myself to categorize each side’s claims of impending catastrophe. And bc basically my entire family, including my step-son and his wife, are so very conservative, I try to hear the Dem side talking points from their point of view. And basically, aside from the details of the actual threats each side yells about, the only difference I can distinguish, is that I believe the things the Dem party warns about are true. I am as convinced that MAGA is an existential threat as the other side is convinced that the Dem party is a fascist communist sex trafficking cabal.
I don’t know how you counter that kind of entrenchment. As your encounter so perfectly illustrates, the maga folks believe to their core that their world will end if Harris is elected, just as I feel about Trump.
I’m actually afraid to talk with our kids about this. I don’t want to find out how extreme their opinions might be. I hold onto the idea that our smart talented kids would finally see the abject nonsense and real danger that another Trump term would mean. But that Im afraid is a pipe dream.
The only time this happened to me was in a waiting room at a doctor's appointment with my husband during COVID. Another couple around our age was also waiting and started to engage with us about "the COVID hoax". I gave them a dead-eyed stare and said in a low, serious voice: "You do NOT want to have that conversation with me." They shut up quick. I agree with Thomas that we won't change their minds. I think the best thing is to show them how reprehensible we think they are.
My wife is an ER nurse. She took a contract in Brooklyn around March-April 2020, and Florida later that year. Suffice to say that I defy any covid "truther" to come at her with that shit. I think her look alone would melt their faces.
Further proof that way too many American white people are blithering morons.
Hi Thomas, I really appreciate the clarity you bring to this extreme time in US politics. This newsletter and the podcast help me to keep my attention focused on the big picture of the fight for pluralistic multiracial democracy. In Texas where I live, I see violent right-wing iconography on a daily basis--the permission structure on open display. Thank you for making time for this important work, even in the midst of travel and time with family!
Also: I'm a full-time mom with a baby and toddler, so audio is often the only way I can catch up on political commentary. I really appreciate the audio versions of your letters and look forward to their return!
Thank you so much, Sara, for your kind words! And the audio versions are definitely coming back. I’m really sorry it proved impossible to record voiceovers while we’ve been traveling. But once I’m back in the States, I’ll make sure to provide the audio.
As a Canadian who has been to the US only a few times, this just confirms what I experienced during most visits. I've been challenged by Americans about "not being allowed to own guns" almost every time they discover where I'm from. My standard reply is "Actually, we are allowed to own guns. But aside from sport hunters, most Canadians don't feel it necessary to own one." From my perspective, extreme positions have always been on view within the US since my first visit in 1977. The problem now is that WE are starting to see more extremism in our population. I think it was Robin Williams who said that being Canadian was like living upstairs from a meth lab. Unfortunately we can't just move to another apartment! I've not been to the US since before 2016 and will likely not cross the border again. As you say, the aggressive haters are everywhere! The one thing I'm committed to doing is challenging any loud rhetoric that may be spewed in my presence WITHIN Canada by US visitors because I have also been subjected to that in the past.